The CTF scene is dead
28 points by Shorden
28 points by Shorden
About the "LLMs are chess engines for CTF" take the article discusses: There's a major cultural difference here that I think should be noted. CTF was always at least in part a tech arms race, with tool use and development being not just allowed but well-respected. Long before LLMs, competitors were employing ever fancier fuzzers, decompilers, dynamic binary analysis, SMT solvers etc. There was no similar progression in chess. There, it was basically all human brain power until one day computers without any input from humans just started to dominate.
So in chess, the culture quickly agreed on banning engines in competitive play and sanctions it as cheating, mostly effectively. In CTF, it's much harder to draw the line. After all, LLMs are also just C++ (or something) programs running on some computers that help you solve challenges. They're just better than the last generation of tools and take less skill to use.
I agree that the CTF scene is in a really dire state and that everyone is still st a loss of what to do, but I think there are some aspects of ctf we can and should salvage
The competitive aspect and the bragging rights might be in danger, but I think there’s a way to keep it for teaching, learning and exchanging new ideas. As an example, do away with the scoreboards. Consider to remove the time limitations. Run it for longer.
Vague-posting here to force myself into writing it down some more. :)
Very much agreed - I think CTFs mean many things for many people, from the article:
It is the ladder from beginner curiosity to elite competition. Which raises the question: what's the point of doing CTFs in the first place? To learn something new? To tease out a fun puzzle? To see who is the best hacker?
To me, the folly of competitive CTFs is reducing the question of "who was the best hacker?" to a number and a scoreboard (or maybe even asking the question in the first place). This has been an uneasy contradiction even before LLMs - take, for example, the dramas around flag sharing, team sizes, "cheesing" flags, and various meta-gaming practices. It seems obvious to me the least important part of CTFs is copying and pasting some text into a website for 500 points, but due to Goodhart's law it becomes the most important part.
I think the aspects of CTFs we can and should salvage is to learn something new or to have fun doing a puzzle. In fact, the union of these two is their strength - you can have fun learning and you can learn while having fun. The puzzling analogy I have in mind is crosswords. When doing crossword puzzles I try not to look up clues unless I'm very stuck. When I finish I like to go back and look up anything I didn't know on wikipedia or discuss with others who solved the puzzle. There are all different types of crosswords (cryptics, patternless, variety) and I like to play them with friends. The concept of writing a harness to have a computer solve it as fast as possible might be interesting as a coding project but for the act of puzzling is anathema.
There are already many less-competitive CTFs that do not have a time limit. They are sometimes called wargames or challenge sites and their meta-site (ala ctftime.org) is wechall.net. I got into CTFs from a great wargame site overthewire.org; the organizers of the site wrote about the wargame scene in a great Phrack article many years ago (scroll down to part 2 - "Wargaming Scene"). The puzzles themselves are decades old at this point but the scene lives on - it's been a joy solving the challenges, introducing new people to them, and helping random people when they get stuck.
The history of CTFs is not something I can personally speak on, (like the author of the link, I started playing CTFs in 2020), but I believe these types of online puzzles were the direct antecedents of the modern CTF scene - people making cybersecurity games for each other over IRC. It makes some poetic sense that the future of CTFs may lie in the past. The death of the competitive CTF scene this blog decries might just be the death of a popular offshoot of an older hacking scene, an offshoot that was quantified, sponsored, and turned into a formal competition. I'd like to think the spirit of the original scene lives on and is what we should protect - educators, puzzlers, and hackers making and solving cybersecurity challenges together.
I just listened today to a talk at BSides about automatically creating a randomised version of CTFs. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/joelpanther_excited-to-be-presenting-at-bsides-melbourne-activity-7459829285256601600-Hiud This approach still works for training for people who actually want to learn and gives opportunity for doing similar problems multiple times without repeating exactly the same thing.
The CTF-as-a-challenge may be dead, but it's still good as a tool for knowledge.
Although I have done quite well in CTFs "back in my day" for the competition aspect, fundamentally they have always been about learning for me. "For the love of the game" one might say. Now it will become clear who is playing because they love the sport and who is playing just to claim empty bragging rights. I'm still going to enjoy a well put together CTF, even if the person next to me pays Anthropic $100 to win.
Now it will become clear who is playing because they love the sport and who is playing just to claim empty bragging rights. I'm still going to enjoy a well put together CTF, even if the person next to me pays Anthropic $100 to win.
I am not a CTF player, but is it possible that the person next to you enjoys putting together a system to solve a well put-together CTF? Maybe you both are playing because you love a sport, but they are different sports. I would be really upset were I running a footrace and a competitor tried to use a bicycle, but prefer that the ambulance coming to take me to a hospital be a motor vehicle. They’re just different things. If the goal is physical exertion, running is good; if it’s physical exertion and transportation, a bike is good; if it’s moving people and things quickly and safely, a motor vehicle is best.
The issue, I think, is when one party thinks he is playing one game and another is playing a different one. When done deliberately, that’s an integrity issue. Maybe CTFs could have proctoring, or be run in-person?
If anything, I think AI has incentivized doing old CTF challenges offline (for me at least)—you don't have to worry about getting scooped by one guy running a swarm of agents and you can still learn from great challenges.