The XY Problem
7 points by ncoop57
7 points by ncoop57
The idea of the XY problem is the worst thing to have happened to online question and answer communities. The standard response to most questions is, "why would you want to do that?". It has turned what could be a pleasant conversation about a technical issue into having to defend your problem statement to people who lack all context. It has meant that a ton of search results for any given problem is just an argument about whether the person asking the question actually wants the kind of solution that the question implies, rather than just containing a solution.
Combine that with Stack Overflow's "closed as duplicate" culture, and I believe it played a part in killing SO.
There is such a thing as an XY problem. It's even relatively common. Discussion about whether there are other, better approaches than what a question involves, does have a place. But in addition to answers to the actual question at hand. This rarely happens. It usually ends with the argument that "you shouldn't want the answer to this question because that implies that you have the wrong problem". Again, from people who lack all context and aren't at all in a position to make such a judgement.
this is kind of a tangent, but "why would you want to do that?" and "no one actually needs that" is one of the most annoying things in online discussion. I find it's especially common in technical communities where people develop an identity around the technology being used. So when a newcomer (or not even a newcomer) asks a question that's like "hey, how can I do X?", and X happens to disagree with that identity, many responses will be telling them that they don't want what they want, or don't need what they need, and maybe "should just" instead.
As a concrete example I ran into recently -- GrapheneOS has a feature that automatically removes permissions from apps that you haven't opened for iirc 3 months (and then eventually archives them after some more time). The intent is kind of good -- you might have installed an app that asked for some broad permissions, and then forgot about it, yet that app can sometimes keep collecting data from your device even if you don't open it. But there are apps that I really don't want that for. GrapheneOS lets you turn off that "remove permissions and archive" setting for individual apps (and sends you a notification when it happens), but I might forget until I realise that that one app I really need once in a blue moon has been auto-disabled. So I was looking for a way to turn it off globally.
It turns out that there isn't one. But people have asked before, and, according to some members of the GrapheneOS forum, everyone who wants there to be a global way to turn off that feature is wrong for wanting that, doesn't understand or care about security, and should honestly just use a different phone OS if they really can't see the light on this.
I'm picking on GrapheneOS forums here, but this is commonplace, especially for anything that's objectively hard to do or not implemented yet. And I bet a lot of the "you don't actually need that" people once actually needed that, and were told by someone else they didn't.
I try not to let it get to me, many people on the internet can be unkind, and unpleasant to interact with. but gah, it's just, like, we can choose not to be like this!
I mean, I'm not a grapheneOS user, but to me this doesn't sound particularly misguided. The logic behind the intent as you call it would be completely invalidated by turning off the feature entirely, I'm sure you can see that.
And of course I can also see how this can be an annoying feature, but for a super privacy-focused OS it makes sense to completely reject a feature that makes everything less secure/private across the board. Is it really such a hassle to fix the permissions (and then maybe disable the feature selectively) for those rarely used apps when they get disabled? Especially if the OS notifies you about it, it doesn't sound like it's a big deal, unless you have literally dozens of such apps.
a feature that automatically removes permissions from apps that you haven't opened for iirc 3 months
I note for reference that mainstream Android does this too.
I agree and hate the idea of the "XY problem". Sometimes I want to do a weird thing. Maybe I'm trying to figure out why it's weird, or how it's implemented, or I just want to do something weird. It's ridiculous that every time you ask on IRC how to X, you're treated as if it's asking Y.
Great point! I'm a big fan of talking about the XY problem, but only when there's a highly shared context. This is super relevant in work settings, as you should understand why someone wants to do something and if you don't, this context should be shared!
It comes from a good place though. It's very common (mostly among newbies) to over-focus on a particular solution path, leading ever further into the weeds, where a re-think of the original problem would be more appropriate. The newbie typically hasn't developed the intuition of the circumstances in which the tool works best and situations to avoid (even if it's a legit use when viewed "from the outside"). Often such situations might actually work, but lead to problems further down the line due to some weakness in the tool that the newbie does not foresee or even know about.
I haven't had someone piont out a suspected XY problem to me in a while, but it does occasionally happen. It's frustrating when it does, but often after humoring the person criticizing my approach, I have to admit I'd become blinded by the problem statement, or missed some weakness in the approach. This happens mostly with technology I'm kinda familiar with but only use tangentially.
Most of the time those who are steeped in a certain technology have developed a radar for iffy "solutions" and it's good to hear them out. I've also found that if you adequately explain the reasoning that led to the approach, they usually (begrudgingly) grant that the approach is valid after all, and either point me in the right direction (and I diligently document the solution as a filthy hack), or explain why what I want really is impossible (and maybe point out alternative tech that can do what I want).
Ha that reminds me of how ask.metafilter.com degraded over time. It was, and probably still is, a better than average place to ask questions but anything even a little bit squishy could get overrun by people who knew what your Actual Problem was.
Also known as "People don’t want to buy a quarter-inch drill. They want a quarter-inch hole!"
I despise this concept, other people mentioned how disruptive and disrespectfully it can be deployed to avoid engaging in discussion.
But also can we talk about the name? “XY problem” is nondescript it hurts.
This article frames the issue as if the problem is with the question asker and not the one answering. If you assume i need y when i ask X , then maybe you’re the problem because you’re assuming?
Like this whole thing can be improved by respectful communication, and followup questions from the Answerer.
Just came across this site while learning about problem finding vs problem solving and its description of the XY problem reminded me about a lot of the failed interactions I've had with AI. However, the AI tends to tell me my idea of tackling Y is brilliant rather than saying its confused by it 😅
That sounds pretty annoying, much better to have someone who actually tells you that what you're asking for doesn't sound right.
100%, been working on a SKILL.md to instill Socratic dialog to try and improve this. However, it is actually really difficult to find exemplar dialogs that are written in modern English prose that would be useful to an LLM. I ended up going with a paraphrased version of the Meno and Socrates exchange on virtue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meno#Introduction_of_virtue
While I can’t deny the problem exists to some degree, assuming the other person is asking the wrong question is both condescending and obnoxious. It is much better, IMHO, to simply ask for context.
I like Jonathan de Boyne Pollard’s take:
Put down the chocolate-covered banana and step away from the European currency systems.